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  • #5535
    Saver0
    Moderator

      On large orders – they will manipulate the market. If they need to buy 50 milion USD, they will SELL 1 mil every few minutes to drop the price, and then start to buy at a cheaper price – again in small chunks.

      This is an interesting topic too.. I have been thinking about how they might be manipulating the markets. I don’t have any buddies that work at any big banks so I have no idea. But I was thinking that if I had the money to be able to manipulate markets the way I would do it might be in the following way. If I need to buy 100 million EUR with my USD, I would lower the price of EUR indirectly. The way I would do this is by increasing the demand of the other currencies indirectly lowering the demand for the EUR. And while this is going on, I would buy up EUR. I need to put more thought into it but this is the idea behind that basket currency indicator that I made. What it’s showing me I think is the manipulation that happens before the big move across related currencies.

      Focus, Patience, Determination & Order in chaos

      #5547
      Revolution
      Participant

        On large orders – they will manipulate the market. If they need to buy 50 milion USD, they will SELL 1 mil every few minutes to drop the price, and then start to buy at a cheaper price – again in small chunks.

        This is an interesting topic too.. I have been thinking about how they might be manipulating the markets. I don’t have any buddies that work at any big banks so I have no idea. But I was thinking that if I had the money to be able to manipulate markets the way I would do it might be in the following way. If I need to buy 100 million EUR with my USD, I would lower the price of EUR indirectly. The way I would do this is by increasing the demand of the other currencies indirectly lowering the demand for the EUR. And while this is going on, I would buy up EUR. I need to put more thought into it but this is the idea behind that basket currency indicator that I made. What it’s showing me I think is the manipulation that happens before the big move across related currencies.

         

        Think of it like this…

         

        When customers buying $ they making banks (MM) short of $, unlike their traders. After all they are MM and that is their nature. Brokers do have bunch of limit orders from MM – their providers so they are able to make market for you…..

        To move the price MM can front run their client orders (execute at “best” market price) or move immediately (execute at market price instant)

         

        Limit orders provide liquidity, market orders consume it. That is why during the news we have such moves as MM removing liquidity from the market – limiting their exposure and risk.

        Who is the counter party to banks and MM’s? Your brokers, clients, HF and PF’s managed by other companies….market structure have changed recently as their is more “liquidity providers” MM’s market share is now less than 50%…so markets became more efficient and it is generally cheaper, also you do not realize that they operate WITHOUT LEVERAGE unlike you.

         

        Market moves because of ….think guys why do market moves..especially decentralized forex market? For each buyer there have to be seller so it is not “more buyers moves market up”..it is more buyers are willing to pay higher price for the “whatever it is”…they click those buttons and consume level after level….

        Think like them THEY CANNOT JUST CLICK BUTTON AND DONE if they have big order they have to work it..that is why you have consolidation periods mistakenly called by others as equilibrium as there is no such thing because you tell me where is the equilibrium?

         

        So if you look for your currency strength MAYBE (and it is just suggestion) you look at the price but not every price bar more like important handles or bar clusters at important levels…

         

        ps. it is not that simple as gg thinks market have lots of participants and people who wait for the banks mistakes…advanced DOMes will show you friends despite you do not know who they are (sometimes probably they know :) ) who buy/sell also at similar levels (handles)

         

        ps. “billion dollar traders” watch it…..you will be able to grasp it..

         

        ps3. did anyone ever asked himself what is spot fx and why it has been created? Usually it is used as the hedge machine..and only times to profit are the times of when MM is unbalanced correctly or prop traders either from banks or HF hunt for – someone call it  “sitting ducks level” –  stop losses……which means they HUNT for liquidity…so nothing against you guys …as gg said THEY NEED TO FILL THEIR ORDERS AT THE BEST PRICE WITHOUT SLIPPAGE…

        #5548
        LearnAlways
        Participant

          On large orders – they will manipulate the market. If they need to buy 50 milion USD, they will SELL 1 mil every few minutes to drop the price, and then start to buy at a cheaper price – again in small chunks.

          This is an interesting topic too.. I have been thinking about how they might be manipulating the markets. I don’t have any buddies that work at any big banks so I have no idea. But I was thinking that if I had the money to be able to manipulate markets the way I would do it might be in the following way. If I need to buy 100 million EUR with my USD, I would lower the price of EUR indirectly. The way I would do this is by increasing the demand of the other currencies indirectly lowering the demand for the EUR. And while this is going on, I would buy up EUR. I need to put more thought into it but this is the idea behind that basket currency indicator that I made. What it’s showing me I think is the manipulation that happens before the big move across related currencies.

          Think of it like this… When customers buying $ they making banks (MM) short of $, unlike their traders. After all they are MM and that is their nature. Brokers do have bunch of limit orders from MM – their providers so they are able to make market for you….. To move the price MM can front run their client orders (execute at “best” market price) or move immediately (execute at market price instant) Limit orders provide liquidity, market orders consume it. That is why during the news we have such moves as MM removing liquidity from the market – limiting their exposure and risk. Who is the counter party to banks and MM’s? Your brokers, clients, HF and PF’s managed by other companies….market structure have changed recently as their is more “liquidity providers” MM’s market share is now less than 50%…so markets became more efficient and it is generally cheaper, also you do not realize that they operate WITHOUT LEVERAGE unlike you. Market moves because of ….think guys why do market moves..especially decentralized forex market? For each buyer there have to be seller so it is not “more buyers moves market up”..it is more buyers are willing to pay higher price for the “whatever it is”…they click those buttons and consume level after level…. Think like them THEY CANNOT JUST CLICK BUTTON AND DONE if they have big order they have to work it..that is why you have consolidation periods mistakenly called by others as equilibrium as there is no such thing because you tell me where is the equilibrium? So if you look for your currency strength MAYBE (and it is just suggestion) you look at the price but not every price bar more like important handles or bar clusters at important levels… ps. it is not that simple as gg thinks market have lots of participants and people who wait for the banks mistakes…advanced DOMes will show you friends despite you do not know who they are (sometimes probably they know :) ) who buy/sell also at similar levels (handles) ps. “billion dollar traders” watch it…..you will be able to grasp it.. ps3. did anyone ever asked himself what is spot fx and why it has been created? Usually it is used as the hedge machine..and only times to profit are the times of when MM is unbalanced correctly or prop traders either from banks or HF hunt for – someone call it “sitting ducks level” – stop losses……which means they HUNT for liquidity…so nothing against you guys …as gg said THEY NEED TO FILL THEIR ORDERS AT THE BEST PRICE WITHOUT SLIPPAGE…

          Hi Revolution,

          Q) It is not as simple as u said it, so do u mind explaining it in more simpler terms??? Currency moves because of major fundamental Central Bank Policies? The so called noise or wild swings are what MM used to establish positions themselves and wipe out those SL too?

          Q) advanced DOMes stands for what?

          Do u mind elaborating how can we make use of this info u presented, we all know MM hunt stops, so what’s the solution? No SL? or Wait for them to wipe out those SL and join them in the same direction?

          Thanks for explaining and Best Regards,

          LearnAlways

          I only know I know nothing
          Skype: [email protected]

          #5549
          flx23
          Participant

            .

            • This reply was modified 9 years, 4 months ago by flx23.
            • This reply was modified 9 years, 4 months ago by Saver0.
            • This reply was modified 9 years, 4 months ago by flx23.
            #5555
            fxrambo
            Participant

              On large orders – they will manipulate the market. If they need to buy 50 milion USD, they will SELL 1 mil every few minutes to drop the price, and then start to buy at a cheaper price – again in small chunks.

              This is an interesting topic too.. I have been thinking about how they might be manipulating the markets. I don’t have any buddies that work at any big banks so I have no idea. But I was thinking that if I had the money to be able to manipulate markets the way I would do it might be in the following way. If I need to buy 100 million EUR with my USD, I would lower the price of EUR indirectly. The way I would do this is by increasing the demand of the other currencies indirectly lowering the demand for the EUR. And while this is going on, I would buy up EUR. I need to put more thought into it but this is the idea behind that basket currency indicator that I made. What it’s showing me I think is the manipulation that happens before the big move across related currencies.

              Think of it like this… When customers buying $ they making banks (MM) short of $, unlike their traders. After all they are MM and that is their nature. Brokers do have bunch of limit orders from MM – their providers so they are able to make market for you….. To move the price MM can front run their client orders (execute at “best” market price) or move immediately (execute at market price instant) Limit orders provide liquidity, market orders consume it. That is why during the news we have such moves as MM removing liquidity from the market – limiting their exposure and risk. Who is the counter party to banks and MM’s? Your brokers, clients, HF and PF’s managed by other companies….market structure have changed recently as their is more “liquidity providers” MM’s market share is now less than 50%…so markets became more efficient and it is generally cheaper, also you do not realize that they operate WITHOUT LEVERAGE unlike you. Market moves because of ….think guys why do market moves..especially decentralized forex market? For each buyer there have to be seller so it is not “more buyers moves market up”..it is more buyers are willing to pay higher price for the “whatever it is”…they click those buttons and consume level after level…. Think like them THEY CANNOT JUST CLICK BUTTON AND DONE if they have big order they have to work it..that is why you have consolidation periods mistakenly called by others as equilibrium as there is no such thing because you tell me where is the equilibrium? So if you look for your currency strength MAYBE (and it is just suggestion) you look at the price but not every price bar more like important handles or bar clusters at important levels… ps. it is not that simple as gg thinks market have lots of participants and people who wait for the banks mistakes…advanced DOMes will show you friends despite you do not know who they are (sometimes probably they know :) ) who buy/sell also at similar levels (handles) ps. “billion dollar traders” watch it…..you will be able to grasp it.. ps3. did anyone ever asked himself what is spot fx and why it has been created? Usually it is used as the hedge machine..and only times to profit are the times of when MM is unbalanced correctly or prop traders either from banks or HF hunt for – someone call it “sitting ducks level” – stop losses……which means they HUNT for liquidity…so nothing against you guys …as gg said THEY NEED TO FILL THEIR ORDERS AT THE BEST PRICE WITHOUT SLIPPAGE…

              please everybody read what revolution has said in his quote this is the way market works there is no other way but this way. limit order/stops/……

              #5556
              BlackStack
              Participant

                flx23,

                As you mentioned the total system’s capital is not constant.  With every country in the world debasing their currencies by printing money (QE) the total amount is constantly increasing, by a lot (trillions of dollars worth!!) every year.

                I’m not clear on what the volume is that the brokers have.  Is it just for the one broker, or do they get information from somewhere else?

                I think that there is a lot of information of the currency strength in just the monthly trend.  The monthly trend does not change direction many times in a year (maybe 3-5 times a year). Someone on another forum uses a 2 period  LWMA for a monthly trend.  Which he works out to the 40 period LWMA on the daily time frame. I work it out to 60 period with metatrader time periods.  Most people historically have used 50 period MA and 200 period MA.  Very simply only buy above the daily 50 and 200 and only sell below the daily 50 and 200.

                Market sentiment has a lot to do with currency strength.  A 50 MA cross below the 200 MA is called the death cross. You can see what the market sentiment is by the name of that cross. The 50 MA cross above the 200 MA is the golden cross.

                #5557
                BlackStack
                Participant

                  please everybody read what revolution has said in his quote this is the way market works there is no other way but this way. limit order/stops/……

                  Yes it is.  Do you know of any brokers that would let you see those orders?  Dukascopy gives limited information but it moves too fast to make any use of.

                  #5558
                  fxrambo
                  Participant

                    please everybody read what revolution has said in his quote this is the way market works there is no other way but this way. limit order/stops/……

                    Yes it is. Do you know of any brokers that would let you see those orders? Dukascopy gives limited information but it moves too fast to make any use of.

                    they all move fast sir

                    #5561
                    simplex
                    Moderator

                      Since this is my first post to this forum

                      Welcome to this forum, flx23! What a start, an excellent post! :good:

                      Another idea: pattern / cycle detection is mostly applied to single pairs. What about global patterns scattered over the currency network?

                      What a seductive idea / question! I’m seriously tempted to start coding it. When somebody mentions cycle detection or cycle length calculation, I instantly think of John Ehlers. I described the outcome of my latest experiments based on his latest book here: http://penguintraders.com/forums/topic/currency-strength/#post-5032

                      So I think for the moment I’ll try to act wisely, code my ideas on transient / recurring zones into a set of functions and integrate them in the EA shell I’m working on. Anyway: be sure I’ll follow this discussion with great interest!

                      Cheers, simplex

                      A good trader is a realist who wants to grab a chunk from the body of a trend, leaving top- and bottom-fishing to people on an ego trip. (Dr. Alexander Elder)

                      #5567
                      Revolution
                      Participant

                        LA:

                        Hi Revolution, Q) It is not as simple as u said it, so do u mind explaining it in more simpler terms??? Currency moves because of major fundamental Central Bank Policies? The so called noise or wild swings are what MM used to establish positions themselves and wipe out those SL too? Q) advanced DOMes stands for what? Do u mind elaborating how can we make use of this info u presented, we all know MM hunt stops, so what’s the solution? No SL? or Wait for them to wipe out those SL and join them in the same direction? Thanks for explaining and Best Regards, LearnAlways [/quote]

                         

                        Hi La,

                         

                        1. Currency moves because of the global flow, risk aversion, interest in type of securities, who is lending and where and in which currency….so large participants interest may differ however flow remains the same….think about it…what are the biggest markets out there? Bond markets are the fat. SO today you have NEGATIVE interest on EU bonds (some of the members) which investors are willing to buy (some positive but not so attractive :) ) On this one reason I can judge that they will sell Euro and buy $ as UST pays better….don’t think about it through one market only it is complex thing but entangled together…there are some other reasons like paying back debt in $ …

                        Read about market structure it is there in net, still for free.

                        1.CB – their participation is very small, probably about 1 % however when they intervene (or stop, CHF exp.) price moves significantly.

                        CB dealers – do things for CB some of them are tier 1 banks (eyes on the market) Usually CB don’t care much but when they do “ouch” may happen.

                        Then tier 2 banks and tier 3 market – ECN, brokers and their clients, smaller banks, HF, PF and others participants – today large enough to move markets as well.

                        To question of yours about swings…

                        Big Banks goes for liquidity and guesstimate (well….little bit better than that as they have their client flow and they know but will not share these information between each other (at least officially) If you are a trader and have large order to execute let say 2 billion of $ to sell and client is interested to buy £…trader will not execute this trade at once as it is tooo big and he will get lots of slippage and market will probably will come back to or near level of execution because of vacuum created by this order…so you see why they have to look for liquidity in the market? To execute at better price and fill it all without slippage…..also MM sometimes have to re balance their books…as they are against the flow.

                         

                        DOM – depth of market – bids, offers, how many, at what level, market orders hitting bids or offers, trade volume at level…

                         

                        SL no SL your choice…where are ducks sitting? Look at you past charts, different TF and look at places where market goes below/above last low/high levels and comes back…

                        It is always better to go with the flow it sounds easy but as you see it is not as…wait and join or go to yes but you have to know when that is why it is easier to trade with main trend but your level of pain have to be big (DD) . I know what you have in your head…A: do you really think that you have bottom/top?

                         

                        regards.

                         

                        ps. let us not continue here as this is a different subject and I don’t want to cause mess here.

                         

                         

                        #5575
                        gg53
                        Participant

                          Since this is my first post to this forum, first of all I’d like to thank everyone for their contributions so far and especially Saver0 for establishing this community. As the currency strength discussion delevopes it seems that fundamental definitions and principles are still vague or at least questionable. I’d like to toss in my point of view. I’m not an experienced trader neighter I know any guys working at banks, but I have a preference for pretty, silly simplifications. Sometimes it is helpful to consider a problem from another viewpoint, so here are some figurative but yet somewhat formal thoughts about currency strength. This model might be insufficient, useless or completely wrong so please be sceptical. Let us assume there are only 3 currencies in the forex market: USD, EUR, JPY constituting the pairs EURUSD, EURJPY and USDJPY. A transaction is an event on a particular currency pair associated with a volume and a direction (long/short). Now every pair is an isolated node. See figure 1. We construct a complementary graph where every node becomes an edge an every edge (none existing so far) becomes a node. Now there is a fully-connected graph with our 3 currencies as nodes and currency pairs or rates as edges. A transaction on a pair in the initial graph would cause a volume flow along the respective edge of the complementary graph. The direction of flow is dependent on whether it was a long or short trade. For example an EURUSD long causes a specific volume to flow from the USD node to the EUR node “transforming” an amount of USD into another amount of EUR subject to the latest rate (right?). If we knew the initial volumes of all nodes we could now calculate the resulting volumes altered by this transaction. There is an implicit assumption here: the system’s overall volume (capital) is constant. This is obviously not true but nice and maybe close enough for a time. We define V the (directed) volume and V’ the volume flow = volume/unit of time. Now imagine the nodes are in fact cylindric vessels and the edges are pipes as illustrated in figure 3. Their filling volume is the sum of all incoming and outgoing volume units caused by all transactions since an origin of time. The filling level is a visible manifestation of the filling volume and depends on the cylindric diameter. The smaller the diameter the less change in volume is necessary to alter the filling level. How about “defining” a currency’s strength as the vessel’s filling level? Back in the forex world, a large diameter would imply that also large volumes are neccessary to impact a currency’s strength. So, “small currencies” would have a small diameter causing them to be volatile or vulnerable against large incoming or outgoing volume flows. This diameter factor might be something like the market share (or it might be completely irrelevant and thus = 1, I don’t know). The important idea is that the strength is proportional to the cumulative filling volume (and the proportionality factor could be dependent on the individual currency). We don’t know the cumulative filling volume or the cumulative capital of a certain currency but we are not really interested in the cumulative volume but rather in the change of it. So, we can set the vessel’s filling volumes or strengths to 0 at any point in time defining a new time origin. This should be basically the same as normalizing or anchoring as Kiads calls it. Consider the 3 nodes or vessels and imagine a specific volume V flows from the USD node through the JPY node into the EUR node along an “indirect path”. Now the EUR’s cumulative volume increases and the USD’s decreases and respectively their strenghts do. But the direct edge (EURUSD) corresponding to the currency pair or rate is quite inert and doesn’t change even if both associated currency strenghts changed. So there is a visible rate different from a true rate or equivalently two strenghts representing the state before the transaction(s) and the two true strenghts. See figure 4. Isn’t that the same what Saver0 did? We remove a certain edge from the network and calculate a synthetic currency pair using an indirect relation between two other curreny pairs. Again the example above and some notes: USD -> JPY, JPY -> EUR. This takes 2 transactions instead of one direct transaction which theoretically takes more time while the direct rate becomes invalid. JPY as the node opposed to the edge EURUSD is canceled out in this relation. Note that calculating synthetic rates (edges) between currencies is somewhat “dual” to calculating synthetic or true strenghts (nodes) (if I know all rates and I set any currency strenght to a fixed value all other strenghts arise as a result maintaining the order and relative distances). Suppose there are more than 3 currencies, see figure 5. Then there are possible longer indirect paths but I think they can all be reduced to those “triangular paths” of length 2 if each node’s strength is updated quick enough. In order to calculate a currency’s strength it should then be sufficient to consider all triangles containing the currency of interest as a node. Someone trying to hide volume flow sends packets of volume to all nodes except the target currency which alters their strenghts successively (as GG53 stated). According to this model a transaction is the cause of a volume flow, volume is the cause of changing cumulative volume, strenght is proportional to cumulative volume and two strenghts are the causes of an associated currency rate. Ideally, we would know the transactions with their volumes (FXCM provides volume & transaction indicators but this would only be one piece of a whole). We can only observe prices over time but considering all prices and their (indirect) relations might allow to detect mispricing early. Another idea: pattern / cycle detection is mostly applied to single pairs. What about global patterns scattered over the currency network? Are there characteristic distributed strength / price configurations or states that can give hints about the underlying volume flows? Thank’s for reading.

                          Currency “market share” is your “pipe diameter”.

                          G.

                          #5576
                          gg53
                          Participant

                            On large orders – they will manipulate the market. If they need to buy 50 milion USD, they will SELL 1 mil every few minutes to drop the price, and then start to buy at a cheaper price – again in small chunks.

                            This is an interesting topic too.. I have been thinking about how they might be manipulating the markets. I don’t have any buddies that work at any big banks so I have no idea. But I was thinking that if I had the money to be able to manipulate markets the way I would do it might be in the following way. If I need to buy 100 million EUR with my USD, I would lower the price of EUR indirectly. The way I would do this is by increasing the demand of the other currencies indirectly lowering the demand for the EUR. And while this is going on, I would buy up EUR. I need to put more thought into it but this is the idea behind that basket currency indicator that I made. What it’s showing me I think is the manipulation that happens before the big move across related currencies.

                            Think of it like this… When customers buying $ they making banks (MM) short of $, unlike their traders. After all they are MM and that is their nature. Brokers do have bunch of limit orders from MM – their providers so they are able to make market for you….. To move the price MM can front run their client orders (execute at “best” market price) or move immediately (execute at market price instant) Limit orders provide liquidity, market orders consume it. That is why during the news we have such moves as MM removing liquidity from the market – limiting their exposure and risk. Who is the counter party to banks and MM’s? Your brokers, clients, HF and PF’s managed by other companies….market structure have changed recently as their is more “liquidity providers” MM’s market share is now less than 50%…so markets became more efficient and it is generally cheaper, also you do not realize that they operate WITHOUT LEVERAGE unlike you. Market moves because of ….think guys why do market moves..especially decentralized forex market? For each buyer there have to be seller so it is not “more buyers moves market up”..it is more buyers are willing to pay higher price for the “whatever it is”…they click those buttons and consume level after level…. Think like them THEY CANNOT JUST CLICK BUTTON AND DONE if they have big order they have to work it..that is why you have consolidation periods mistakenly called by others as equilibrium as there is no such thing because you tell me where is the equilibrium? So if you look for your currency strength MAYBE (and it is just suggestion) you look at the price but not every price bar more like important handles or bar clusters at important levels… ps. it is not that simple as gg thinks market have lots of participants and people who wait for the banks mistakes…advanced DOMes will show you friends despite you do not know who they are (sometimes probably they know :) ) who buy/sell also at similar levels (handles) ps. “billion dollar traders” watch it…..you will be able to grasp it.. ps3. did anyone ever asked himself what is spot fx and why it has been created? Usually it is used as the hedge machine..and only times to profit are the times of when MM is unbalanced correctly or prop traders either from banks or HF hunt for – someone call it “sitting ducks level” – stop losses……which means they HUNT for liquidity…so nothing against you guys …as gg said THEY NEED TO FILL THEIR ORDERS AT THE BEST PRICE WITHOUT SLIPPAGE…

                            please everybody read what revolution has said in his quote this is the way market works there is no other way but this way. limit order/stops/……

                            Not true.

                            Limit orders are the cheapest way to manipulate the market.

                            Market Makers are using it all the time. Relying on DOM can be a death-trap. Limit orders are NOT an obligation, and can be canceled at any time.

                            You can put a limit order of considerable sum and at the last minute, when price comes to where you want it to be  – cancel it.

                            That’s market manipulation, it’s done all the time by market makers and movers, and it cost them nothing…

                             

                            G.

                            #5577
                            Revolution
                            Participant

                              On large orders – they will manipulate the market. If they need to buy 50 milion USD, they will SELL 1 mil every few minutes to drop the price, and then start to buy at a cheaper price – again in small chunks.

                              This is an interesting topic too.. I have been thinking about how they might be manipulating the markets. I don’t have any buddies that work at any big banks so I have no idea. But I was thinking that if I had the money to be able to manipulate markets the way I would do it might be in the following way. If I need to buy 100 million EUR with my USD, I would lower the price of EUR indirectly. The way I would do this is by increasing the demand of the other currencies indirectly lowering the demand for the EUR. And while this is going on, I would buy up EUR. I need to put more thought into it but this is the idea behind that basket currency indicator that I made. What it’s showing me I think is the manipulation that happens before the big move across related currencies.

                              Think of it like this… When customers buying $ they making banks (MM) short of $, unlike their traders. After all they are MM and that is their nature. Brokers do have bunch of limit orders from MM – their providers so they are able to make market for you….. To move the price MM can front run their client orders (execute at “best” market price) or move immediately (execute at market price instant) Limit orders provide liquidity, market orders consume it. That is why during the news we have such moves as MM removing liquidity from the market – limiting their exposure and risk. Who is the counter party to banks and MM’s? Your brokers, clients, HF and PF’s managed by other companies….market structure have changed recently as their is more “liquidity providers” MM’s market share is now less than 50%…so markets became more efficient and it is generally cheaper, also you do not realize that they operate WITHOUT LEVERAGE unlike you. Market moves because of ….think guys why do market moves..especially decentralized forex market? For each buyer there have to be seller so it is not “more buyers moves market up”..it is more buyers are willing to pay higher price for the “whatever it is”…they click those buttons and consume level after level…. Think like them THEY CANNOT JUST CLICK BUTTON AND DONE if they have big order they have to work it..that is why you have consolidation periods mistakenly called by others as equilibrium as there is no such thing because you tell me where is the equilibrium? So if you look for your currency strength MAYBE (and it is just suggestion) you look at the price but not every price bar more like important handles or bar clusters at important levels… ps. it is not that simple as gg thinks market have lots of participants and people who wait for the banks mistakes…advanced DOMes will show you friends despite you do not know who they are (sometimes probably they know :) ) who buy/sell also at similar levels (handles) ps. “billion dollar traders” watch it…..you will be able to grasp it.. ps3. did anyone ever asked himself what is spot fx and why it has been created? Usually it is used as the hedge machine..and only times to profit are the times of when MM is unbalanced correctly or prop traders either from banks or HF hunt for – someone call it “sitting ducks level” – stop losses……which means they HUNT for liquidity…so nothing against you guys …as gg said THEY NEED TO FILL THEIR ORDERS AT THE BEST PRICE WITHOUT SLIPPAGE…

                              please everybody read what revolution has said in his quote this is the way market works there is no other way but this way. limit order/stops/……

                              Not true. Limit orders are the cheapest way to manipulate the market. Market Makers are using it all the time. You can put a limit order of considerable sum and at the last minute, when price comes to where you want it to be – cancel it. That’s market manipulation, it’s done all the time by market makers and movers, and it cost them nothing… G.

                               

                               

                              So please explain how does it manipulate the price of any security by setting and removing orders?

                               

                              On your example : if gg comes to the market and set limit order on xxx price of any security and when price comes close to his handle/level he removes the order…so gg is market manipulator? And before you ask, how does it differ between gg’s $0.1  and banks $10 limit order? There is no difference and there is no manipulation….of course my understanding of the word manipulation may differ from gg’s hence misunderstanding.

                              #5578
                              fxrambo
                              Participant

                                On large orders – they will manipulate the market. If they need to buy 50 milion USD, they will SELL 1 mil every few minutes to drop the price, and then start to buy at a cheaper price – again in small chunks.

                                This is an interesting topic too.. I have been thinking about how they might be manipulating the markets. I don’t have any buddies that work at any big banks so I have no idea. But I was thinking that if I had the money to be able to manipulate markets the way I would do it might be in the following way. If I need to buy 100 million EUR with my USD, I would lower the price of EUR indirectly. The way I would do this is by increasing the demand of the other currencies indirectly lowering the demand for the EUR. And while this is going on, I would buy up EUR. I need to put more thought into it but this is the idea behind that basket currency indicator that I made. What it’s showing me I think is the manipulation that happens before the big move across related currencies.

                                Think of it like this… When customers buying $ they making banks (MM) short of $, unlike their traders. After all they are MM and that is their nature. Brokers do have bunch of limit orders from MM – their providers so they are able to make market for you….. To move the price MM can front run their client orders (execute at “best” market price) or move immediately (execute at market price instant) Limit orders provide liquidity, market orders consume it. That is why during the news we have such moves as MM removing liquidity from the market – limiting their exposure and risk. Who is the counter party to banks and MM’s? Your brokers, clients, HF and PF’s managed by other companies….market structure have changed recently as their is more “liquidity providers” MM’s market share is now less than 50%…so markets became more efficient and it is generally cheaper, also you do not realize that they operate WITHOUT LEVERAGE unlike you. Market moves because of ….think guys why do market moves..especially decentralized forex market? For each buyer there have to be seller so it is not “more buyers moves market up”..it is more buyers are willing to pay higher price for the “whatever it is”…they click those buttons and consume level after level…. Think like them THEY CANNOT JUST CLICK BUTTON AND DONE if they have big order they have to work it..that is why you have consolidation periods mistakenly called by others as equilibrium as there is no such thing because you tell me where is the equilibrium? So if you look for your currency strength MAYBE (and it is just suggestion) you look at the price but not every price bar more like important handles or bar clusters at important levels… ps. it is not that simple as gg thinks market have lots of participants and people who wait for the banks mistakes…advanced DOMes will show you friends despite you do not know who they are (sometimes probably they know :) ) who buy/sell also at similar levels (handles) ps. “billion dollar traders” watch it…..you will be able to grasp it.. ps3. did anyone ever asked himself what is spot fx and why it has been created? Usually it is used as the hedge machine..and only times to profit are the times of when MM is unbalanced correctly or prop traders either from banks or HF hunt for – someone call it “sitting ducks level” – stop losses……which means they HUNT for liquidity…so nothing against you guys …as gg said THEY NEED TO FILL THEIR ORDERS AT THE BEST PRICE WITHOUT SLIPPAGE…

                                please everybody read what revolution has said in his quote this is the way market works there is no other way but this way. limit order/stops/……

                                Not true. Limit orders are the cheapest way to manipulate the market. Market Makers are using it all the time. Relying on DOM can be a death-trap. Limit orders are NOT an obligation, and can be canceled at any time. You can put a limit order of considerable sum and at the last minute, when price comes to where you want it to be – cancel it. That’s market manipulation, it’s done all the time by market makers and movers, and it cost them nothing… G.

                                hehehe I wont argue if is true because nothing is true in spot fx whether volume or price or anything even the dom you see do you think those are the real orders there ?this are just splitted you see on the dom it doesn’t mean when I big company put 1billion usd to buy that what you will see exartly in the dom no no no.whether paid or free nothing you see is complete.

                                #5579
                                fxrambo
                                Participant

                                  This reply has been reported for inappropriate content.

                                  to me what revolution has said is the wall and the magnet where price should be but the question is where do we find this limit orders or stop loss or market orders or anything that is complete????

                                  #5581
                                  gg53
                                  Participant

                                    On large orders – they will manipulate the market. If they need to buy 50 milion USD, they will SELL 1 mil every few minutes to drop the price, and then start to buy at a cheaper price – again in small chunks.

                                    This is an interesting topic too.. I have been thinking about how they might be manipulating the markets. I don’t have any buddies that work at any big banks so I have no idea. But I was thinking that if I had the money to be able to manipulate markets the way I would do it might be in the following way. If I need to buy 100 million EUR with my USD, I would lower the price of EUR indirectly. The way I would do this is by increasing the demand of the other currencies indirectly lowering the demand for the EUR. And while this is going on, I would buy up EUR. I need to put more thought into it but this is the idea behind that basket currency indicator that I made. What it’s showing me I think is the manipulation that happens before the big move across related currencies.

                                    Think of it like this… When customers buying $ they making banks (MM) short of $, unlike their traders. After all they are MM and that is their nature. Brokers do have bunch of limit orders from MM – their providers so they are able to make market for you….. To move the price MM can front run their client orders (execute at “best” market price) or move immediately (execute at market price instant) Limit orders provide liquidity, market orders consume it. That is why during the news we have such moves as MM removing liquidity from the market – limiting their exposure and risk. Who is the counter party to banks and MM’s? Your brokers, clients, HF and PF’s managed by other companies….market structure have changed recently as their is more “liquidity providers” MM’s market share is now less than 50%…so markets became more efficient and it is generally cheaper, also you do not realize that they operate WITHOUT LEVERAGE unlike you. Market moves because of ….think guys why do market moves..especially decentralized forex market? For each buyer there have to be seller so it is not “more buyers moves market up”..it is more buyers are willing to pay higher price for the “whatever it is”…they click those buttons and consume level after level…. Think like them THEY CANNOT JUST CLICK BUTTON AND DONE if they have big order they have to work it..that is why you have consolidation periods mistakenly called by others as equilibrium as there is no such thing because you tell me where is the equilibrium? So if you look for your currency strength MAYBE (and it is just suggestion) you look at the price but not every price bar more like important handles or bar clusters at important levels… ps. it is not that simple as gg thinks market have lots of participants and people who wait for the banks mistakes…advanced DOMes will show you friends despite you do not know who they are (sometimes probably they know :) ) who buy/sell also at similar levels (handles) ps. “billion dollar traders” watch it…..you will be able to grasp it.. ps3. did anyone ever asked himself what is spot fx and why it has been created? Usually it is used as the hedge machine..and only times to profit are the times of when MM is unbalanced correctly or prop traders either from banks or HF hunt for – someone call it “sitting ducks level” – stop losses……which means they HUNT for liquidity…so nothing against you guys …as gg said THEY NEED TO FILL THEIR ORDERS AT THE BEST PRICE WITHOUT SLIPPAGE…

                                    please everybody read what revolution has said in his quote this is the way market works there is no other way but this way. limit order/stops/……

                                    Not true. Limit orders are the cheapest way to manipulate the market. Market Makers are using it all the time. You can put a limit order of considerable sum and at the last minute, when price comes to where you want it to be – cancel it. That’s market manipulation, it’s done all the time by market makers and movers, and it cost them nothing… G.

                                    So please explain how does it manipulate the price of any security by setting and removing orders? On your example : if gg comes to the market and set limit order on xxx price of any security and when price comes close to his handle/level he removes the order…so gg is market manipulator? And before you ask, how does it differ between gg’s $0.1 and banks $10 limit order? There is no difference and there is no manipulation….of course my understanding of the word manipulation may differ from gg’s hence misunderstanding.

                                    Brokers & Financial Institutions doesn’t use MT4….

                                    They can see Level 2 and Level 1 DOM – which means they can see pending orders, price & lots per each pending order.

                                    If someone puts 50 mil. pending order to buy EURUSD 20 pips away from current price – they can see it.

                                    The market will react to such an order, or consecutive smaller ones in same direction.

                                    …and… those pending orders can be canceled at will…

                                    Draw your conclusion how to call it.

                                     

                                    G.

                                    #5582
                                    gg53
                                    Participant

                                      ADMIN:

                                      Market Movers and Shakers is a very interesting subject, but doesn’t really belong here.

                                      Please create a proper thread and move the relevant post there – where everyone can comment on the proper thread subject.

                                      Thanks.

                                       

                                      G.

                                      #5583
                                      gg53
                                      Participant

                                        to me what revolution has said is the wall and the magnet where price should be but the question is where do we find this limit orders or stop loss or market orders or anything that is complete????

                                        There are some trading platforms that provide Level 2 DOM.

                                        I think Ctrader have it, but not sure, and there are some other.

                                         

                                        G.

                                        #5585
                                        fxrambo
                                        Participant

                                          to me what revolution has said is the wall and the magnet where price should be but the question is where do we find this limit orders or stop loss or market orders or anything that is complete????

                                          There are some trading platforms that provide Level 2 DOM. I think Ctrader have it, but not sure, and there are some other. G.

                                          ok I think we have gone far away from the aim of the thread but whether is level 2 because there are many level 2 but what you see are splited order not the full order

                                          #5610
                                          Revolution
                                          Participant

                                            On large orders – they will manipulate the market. If they need to buy 50 milion USD, they will SELL 1 mil every few minutes to drop the price, and then start to buy at a cheaper price – again in small chunks.

                                            This is an interesting topic too.. I have been thinking about how they might be manipulating the markets. I don’t have any buddies that work at any big banks so I have no idea. But I was thinking that if I had the money to be able to manipulate markets the way I would do it might be in the following way. If I need to buy 100 million EUR with my USD, I would lower the price of EUR indirectly. The way I would do this is by increasing the demand of the other currencies indirectly lowering the demand for the EUR. And while this is going on, I would buy up EUR. I need to put more thought into it but this is the idea behind that basket currency indicator that I made. What it’s showing me I think is the manipulation that happens before the big move across related currencies.

                                            Think of it like this… When customers buying $ they making banks (MM) short of $, unlike their traders. After all they are MM and that is their nature. Brokers do have bunch of limit orders from MM – their providers so they are able to make market for you….. To move the price MM can front run their client orders (execute at “best” market price) or move immediately (execute at market price instant) Limit orders provide liquidity, market orders consume it. That is why during the news we have such moves as MM removing liquidity from the market – limiting their exposure and risk. Who is the counter party to banks and MM’s? Your brokers, clients, HF and PF’s managed by other companies….market structure have changed recently as their is more “liquidity providers” MM’s market share is now less than 50%…so markets became more efficient and it is generally cheaper, also you do not realize that they operate WITHOUT LEVERAGE unlike you. Market moves because of ….think guys why do market moves..especially decentralized forex market? For each buyer there have to be seller so it is not “more buyers moves market up”..it is more buyers are willing to pay higher price for the “whatever it is”…they click those buttons and consume level after level…. Think like them THEY CANNOT JUST CLICK BUTTON AND DONE if they have big order they have to work it..that is why you have consolidation periods mistakenly called by others as equilibrium as there is no such thing because you tell me where is the equilibrium? So if you look for your currency strength MAYBE (and it is just suggestion) you look at the price but not every price bar more like important handles or bar clusters at important levels… ps. it is not that simple as gg thinks market have lots of participants and people who wait for the banks mistakes…advanced DOMes will show you friends despite you do not know who they are (sometimes probably they know :) ) who buy/sell also at similar levels (handles) ps. “billion dollar traders” watch it…..you will be able to grasp it.. ps3. did anyone ever asked himself what is spot fx and why it has been created? Usually it is used as the hedge machine..and only times to profit are the times of when MM is unbalanced correctly or prop traders either from banks or HF hunt for – someone call it “sitting ducks level” – stop losses……which means they HUNT for liquidity…so nothing against you guys …as gg said THEY NEED TO FILL THEIR ORDERS AT THE BEST PRICE WITHOUT SLIPPAGE…

                                            please everybody read what revolution has said in his quote this is the way market works there is no other way but this way. limit order/stops/……

                                            Not true. Limit orders are the cheapest way to manipulate the market. Market Makers are using it all the time. You can put a limit order of considerable sum and at the last minute, when price comes to where you want it to be – cancel it. That’s market manipulation, it’s done all the time by market makers and movers, and it cost them nothing… G.

                                            So please explain how does it manipulate the price of any security by setting and removing orders? On your example : if gg comes to the market and set limit order on xxx price of any security and when price comes close to his handle/level he removes the order…so gg is market manipulator? And before you ask, how does it differ between gg’s $0.1 and banks $10 limit order? There is no difference and there is no manipulation….of course my understanding of the word manipulation may differ from gg’s hence misunderstanding.

                                            Brokers & Financial Institutions doesn’t use MT4…. They can see Level 2 and Level 1 DOM – which means they can see pending orders, price & lots per each pending order. If someone puts 50 mil. pending order to buy EURUSD 20 pips away from current price – they can see it. The market will react to such an order, or consecutive smaller ones in same direction. …and… those pending orders can be canceled at will… Draw your conclusion how to call it. G.

                                             

                                            I am sorry but it is just nonsense. No professional trader will do it and If he/she will do and will tell somebody he/she will get into trouble. You cannot see such thing as it moves to fast …traders looking at the price levels at which there is liquidity (actual market orders hitting bids) and when the price want to shoot off somebody blocks it..if there is no liquidity market moves lower/higher to find it, and again same play, usually you know from charts where the levels are and you looking at those price levels through DOM. Newbee traders have no chance to look at chart for first few months…they looking at DOM for few months…and they have chores to do everyday…ie. scalp market for 3 ticks, do 100 trades a day, entry at random and manage trade…it is different world than the one you operate in……Don’t take it personally but you have not seen DOM and how it works!

                                             

                                            Interesting I have found something on YT ..archaic model of DOM…tell me gg where is the big order??? HFT also does not look for such things as they usually operate between spread and their quotes are such that you will never get as retail trader….

                                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NftY6J_sKeI

                                             

                                            Can you grasp the concept now?

                                             

                                            “Brokers & Financial Institutions doesn’t use MT4….”

                                            Thanks I will note it in my notepad. :mail:

                                             

                                             

                                            #5611
                                            gg53
                                            Participant

                                              I never said it’s for retail trader. Retail traders can’t lift the heavy weight… But Financial institution are doing it all the time, and it’s perfectly legal.

                                              Did you worked in big financial institution trading room? or visited there?

                                              Have you programmed a Bid/Ask software algo? Or seen one at work?

                                              I sure hope you enjoy the video with 1 pip interval…

                                               

                                              G.

                                              • This reply was modified 9 years, 4 months ago by gg53.
                                              #5616
                                              fxrambo
                                              Participant

                                                On large orders – they will manipulate the market. If they need to buy 50 milion USD, they will SELL 1 mil every few minutes to drop the price, and then start to buy at a cheaper price – again in small chunks.

                                                This is an interesting topic too.. I have been thinking about how they might be manipulating the markets. I don’t have any buddies that work at any big banks so I have no idea. But I was thinking that if I had the money to be able to manipulate markets the way I would do it might be in the following way. If I need to buy 100 million EUR with my USD, I would lower the price of EUR indirectly. The way I would do this is by increasing the demand of the other currencies indirectly lowering the demand for the EUR. And while this is going on, I would buy up EUR. I need to put more thought into it but this is the idea behind that basket currency indicator that I made. What it’s showing me I think is the manipulation that happens before the big move across related currencies.

                                                Think of it like this… When customers buying $ they making banks (MM) short of $, unlike their traders. After all they are MM and that is their nature. Brokers do have bunch of limit orders from MM – their providers so they are able to make market for you….. To move the price MM can front run their client orders (execute at “best” market price) or move immediately (execute at market price instant) Limit orders provide liquidity, market orders consume it. That is why during the news we have such moves as MM removing liquidity from the market – limiting their exposure and risk. Who is the counter party to banks and MM’s? Your brokers, clients, HF and PF’s managed by other companies….market structure have changed recently as their is more “liquidity providers” MM’s market share is now less than 50%…so markets became more efficient and it is generally cheaper, also you do not realize that they operate WITHOUT LEVERAGE unlike you. Market moves because of ….think guys why do market moves..especially decentralized forex market? For each buyer there have to be seller so it is not “more buyers moves market up”..it is more buyers are willing to pay higher price for the “whatever it is”…they click those buttons and consume level after level…. Think like them THEY CANNOT JUST CLICK BUTTON AND DONE if they have big order they have to work it..that is why you have consolidation periods mistakenly called by others as equilibrium as there is no such thing because you tell me where is the equilibrium? So if you look for your currency strength MAYBE (and it is just suggestion) you look at the price but not every price bar more like important handles or bar clusters at important levels… ps. it is not that simple as gg thinks market have lots of participants and people who wait for the banks mistakes…advanced DOMes will show you friends despite you do not know who they are (sometimes probably they know :) ) who buy/sell also at similar levels (handles) ps. “billion dollar traders” watch it…..you will be able to grasp it.. ps3. did anyone ever asked himself what is spot fx and why it has been created? Usually it is used as the hedge machine..and only times to profit are the times of when MM is unbalanced correctly or prop traders either from banks or HF hunt for – someone call it “sitting ducks level” – stop losses……which means they HUNT for liquidity…so nothing against you guys …as gg said THEY NEED TO FILL THEIR ORDERS AT THE BEST PRICE WITHOUT SLIPPAGE…

                                                please everybody read what revolution has said in his quote this is the way market works there is no other way but this way. limit order/stops/……

                                                Not true. Limit orders are the cheapest way to manipulate the market. Market Makers are using it all the time. You can put a limit order of considerable sum and at the last minute, when price comes to where you want it to be – cancel it. That’s market manipulation, it’s done all the time by market makers and movers, and it cost them nothing… G.

                                                So please explain how does it manipulate the price of any security by setting and removing orders? On your example : if gg comes to the market and set limit order on xxx price of any security and when price comes close to his handle/level he removes the order…so gg is market manipulator? And before you ask, how does it differ between gg’s $0.1 and banks $10 limit order? There is no difference and there is no manipulation….of course my understanding of the word manipulation may differ from gg’s hence misunderstanding.

                                                Brokers & Financial Institutions doesn’t use MT4…. They can see Level 2 and Level 1 DOM – which means they can see pending orders, price & lots per each pending order. If someone puts 50 mil. pending order to buy EURUSD 20 pips away from current price – they can see it. The market will react to such an order, or consecutive smaller ones in same direction. …and… those pending orders can be canceled at will… Draw your conclusion how to call it. G.

                                                I am sorry but it is just nonsense. No professional trader will do it and If he/she will do and will tell somebody he/she will get into trouble. You cannot see such thing as it moves to fast …traders looking at the price levels at which there is liquidity (actual market orders hitting bids) and when the price want to shoot off somebody blocks it..if there is no liquidity market moves lower/higher to find it, and again same play, usually you know from charts where the levels are and you looking at those price levels through DOM. Newbee traders have no chance to look at chart for first few months…they looking at DOM for few months…and they have chores to do everyday…ie. scalp market for 3 ticks, do 100 trades a day, entry at random and manage trade…it is different world than the one you operate in……Don’t take it personally but you have not seen DOM and how it works! Interesting I have found something on YT ..archaic model of DOM…tell me gg where is the big order??? HFT also does not look for such things as they usually operate between spread and their quotes are such that you will never get as retail trader….

                                                Can you grasp the concept now? “Brokers & Financial Institutions doesn’t use MT4….” Thanks I will note it in my notepad. :mail:

                                                the don’t use mt4 but they will still see your order but you wont see theirs that’s what am trying to tell gg but am not ready to argue I will leave the thread with my knowledge becos everybody has his own diferent opinions and that’s why forex still exist

                                                #5618
                                                gg53
                                                Participant

                                                  fxrambo,

                                                  Please stay and continue to contribute.

                                                  I’m the one who is leaving – some threads here start to smell like the too familiar FF threads.

                                                  Bye.

                                                   

                                                  G

                                                  .

                                                  #5621
                                                  MTH2014
                                                  Participant

                                                    OMG… why we must arguing each other for something that we don’t do it on our ‘current actual trading activity’..

                                                    As long as you still playing with MT4/5 indicators and chart  or playing with capital less than 10B $,  let make this discussion as our ‘general knowledge only’…. lol.

                                                    But if You’re G.Sachs  or M.Lynch or Barclay Boys.. then I don’t think I can follow further discussion… B-)

                                                    MTH

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Intuition, Experiences and Common sense..
                                                    http://www.binaryoptionsedge.com/

                                                    #5630
                                                    Revolution
                                                    Participant

                                                      I never said it’s for retail trader. Retail traders can’t lift the heavy weight… But Financial institution are doing it all the time, and it’s perfectly legal. Did you worked in big financial institution trading room? or visited there? Have you programmed a Bid/Ask software algo? Or seen one at work? I sure hope you enjoy the video with 1 pip interval… G.

                                                       

                                                      Big financial institutions, from banks to HF do not know their competitors order flow. Setting and removing limits orders on any security on any market is daily normality, they do it however to disorient the other party algos and you trying to imply that some institutions make their decisions because somebody sees a large order below or above the price. Do you know how it sounds, like gambling that somebody will not remove such order so we buy/sell.  GG I am not saying that this is not happening, ok? I am saying that the price move because of different factors/reasons…

                                                       

                                                      ps. leaving because of disagreement? That is the last thing you need in trading :) So come back please and contribute.

                                                       

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